Amy Spangler:   Someone asked me recently, so often we try and draw similarities between cigarette smoking and getting babies infant formula and that recent bill that was put forward by Senator Harkin calling for disclaimers to be put on all infant formula products and I was asked what was my position on that and I said, "You know, I probably am a member of the advocacy arena that would likely not draw similarities between mothers who smoke cigarettes and mothers to get their baby formula because in reality there is no consumption of cigarettes that is ever recommended, that has ever been official." 

Yet with formula use, there are moments when it is recommended and it has been official.  So, my argument with the formula industry is not always the product that they produce, it is how they market that product.  I think that is where -- again, how do we get that idea across?  It is not the good guys and the bad guys.  It is how do we come together in the best interest of mothers and children everywhere?

Carrie:   That is a good point.  Well, when it comes to this whole controversy about the Baby Talk Magazine, I could not help but think when I heard some of the comments that were made, that were reported on, it really just makes me think that women -- part of their reaction is coming from their own -- almost they are loathing with their own bodies.  Being uncomfortable in our own skin so that something that comes so naturally and is so natural, we have this response to it.  Do you think there is any validity to that?  Is it that we are just very uncomfortable with our own womanliness, our own bodies, and that explains some of that response?

Amy Spangler:          Well, I think that is certainly true of some women.  I am sure that there are probably an equal number of women that are very comfortable with their bodies and do not hesitate to display their bodies in ways that are provocative, or flattering, or inviting, or whatever the case may be.  I like to think more that it is a reflection of the fact that when there is an activity that is not commonly seen, when something is not in the mainstream, when it is infrequently observed or happens with rarity, then when it does happen it triggers a response, not always a positive response. 

I feel like that is where we are with breastfeeding.  If breastfeeding in public were something that women did nationwide and you saw it everyday, you would not even give it a second glance because you would think that that is just culturally acceptable and normal and therefore why should I observe or think twice about whether it is or is not appropriate.  Of course, it is appropriate.  That is truly the case in cultures where breastfeeding is the normal way to feed a child. 

In America, bottle feeding is the normal way to feed a child and the most common method observed and more importantly the most common method displayed in all segments of the media.  I mean you see magazines with fathers getting babies bottles and mothers getting babies bottles.  You see baby dolls sold in stores with the baby bottle that comes along with it.  We reinforce all of those concepts that this is the normal way to feed a child.  Therefore, to do that in public is fine because that is the norm, but to do something that is not perceived as the norm, it causes a reaction.  I think that is where we are.  We are on that continuum of trying to make breastfeeding the cultural norm.  I have to say I do not think, you know, as I approach 60, I do not know it will happen in my lifetime.  I am confident it will happen in my children's lifetime.

Carrie:  I believe that, too.  The reason that I said what I did was because I have noticed that men seem to be more comfortable with breastfeeding in public than women do.  Some of the like really vitriolic comments seem to come from women, so it makes me think that.  One of the woman that were quoted in this news coverage that I saw, she said, "I would not want my husband to accidentally see a breast that he did not want to see," and she actually went so far as to shred the magazine and I thought you know, I have never known a man to be really offended by accidentally seeing a breast!

Amy Spangler:    My temptation with these mothers is I always wish that I have the opportunity to say to them "please tell me what your experience with breastfeeding has been" because I cannot help but feel that women who respond in that negative a fashion had had a very negative experience with breastfeeding either personally or through friends.  Some incident has embedded in them an attitude that truly is not an attitude I think we would see or that can be taught or learned.  I think experience has to have given them that.

Carrie:    Yes. Whenever there is an emotion that is strong I feel that there is pain behind that somewhere.

 Whether guilt pain or just some kind of pain somewhere and it is not necessary to have that kind of pain. 

I have a friend who -- we are good friends and it is funny because we are opposite in every way and our mothering styles are very, very opposite.  She hates breastfeeding and she is very unapologetic about it, but she does not feeling the slightest bit of guilt and so it is very refreshing.  I have no problem nursing my 11-month-old around her.  She has no problem with it either, but she is very open about the fact that "Oh, I can't wait 'til this baby's 3 months old so I can wean him, I hate breastfeeding!"  She is very, very unapologetic about it.  She has decided what is best for her and what is best for her family.  She has told me that breastfeeding makes her feel just very caged like her flesh is crawling or what have you, but the guilt aspect is something that people often bring up.  We are making women feel guilty for not breastfeeding.

Amy Spangler:     I think your comment is very, probably very perceptive, and very, very important in that you made the reference to the woman having a sense of hurt and that it was really not so much anger that causes those negative comments, but some kind of a hurtful experience that that woman had and I think those of us in the breastfeeding community need to always keep that in mind that when we have someone that makes a very negative comment about something like a Baby Talk Magazine cover, we need to be above the fray. 

We need to step back and not do that knee jerk response like "Uh!  What kind of individual are you?  What kind of mother are you?"  We need to be able to say, "Gosh!  What was your breastfeeding experience?  Did something happen to make you feel this way?"  I think we all might be amazed at the outpouring of emotions that we might get in return.  If we give those individuals a chance to say why they feel the way they feel because I just think that it is a response to something bottled up inside of them.  Maybe guilt is what is driving part of that and I am a firm believer that we do not make woman feel guilty.  Guilt comes from within.  It belongs to each of us.  We allow ourselves to feel guilty based upon decisions we make or choices we make that we felt were outside of our control and like your friend she had significant control over her decision.  So, she is making a decision knowing what the information is and therefore she is comfortable with it.  It was not the decision that you make for the child but you can mutually respect one another and that is the point that we all need to get in order for us to achieve a breastfeeding culture.

Carrie: Compassion is always the answer. No matter what the question, that is always the answer.  That is a good point to keep in mind about asking a woman about her experience.  That is something that I have told women who are having trouble with their mother or their mother-in-law, you know, undermining their breastfeeding.  That can be such a sensitive time post partum if you are having help around your home, your mother or your mother-in-law, is helping you.  You need that help and you need that support but it is often that person who is supporting you and other helpful ways subtly undermining or not so subtly undermining your breastfeeding choice but instead of arguing about it or trying to convince them -- talking, listening, and asking questions, it can do wonders.

Amy Spangler:    I can remember when I used to teach classes and the concern on the part of many of these young expectant moms was when that mother or mother-in-law came after the baby was born.  The fact that they have not breastfed, would they indeed be supportive or would they actually be a detriment, and I would always encourage them -- I do not know what your relationship with this mother or mother-in-law is, but it is always best to be proactive and if possible during the pregnancy say, "I am so looking forward to the help that I know I am going to need afterwards, but I do have some concerns about breastfeeding, can we talk?  Because I know you didn't breastfeed me or you didn't breastfeed my husband and therefore I want to make sure -- you have an understanding of why I'm making this choice and how important it is to me."  I think if you can diffuse it and get that person to be less defensive, they are more likely to be on your side as a supporter instead of as an adversary.

Carrie: Yeah, and that is important.  That is a good skill to practice and you might as well get it over with right away because when you have children you are going to be having to set boundaries with yourself and your parenting when it comes to other people.  This is what my husband and I have decided.  This is how we are going to do things and we value your opinion very much; however, the final decision rest with us.

Amy Spangler:   I think for many grandparents, the hard part is for them to understand that because you are making a different choice does not mean that you are denigrating their choice.  What you are saying to them is I have different information available to me.  Now when I am pregnant with my child than you had when you were pregnant with my husband or my partner or whomever.  Oftentimes that grandparent feels like "oh, this mom that is breastfeeding is saying I wasn't a very good mother because I bottle fed this baby's father."  That is not what you are saying at all, so I think to open up that discussion and put it out there allows for everybody to quit walking around and to be able to have a comfort level with it.

 
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